Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124

03/11/2014 01:00 PM House TRANSPORTATION


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 194 RIGHTS-OF-WAY TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
*+ HB 371 STATE LAND AND MATERIALS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                HB 371-STATE LAND AND MATERIALS                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:06:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON announced that  the first order of business would                                                               
be HOUSE  BILL NO. 371, "An  Act providing for the  Department of                                                               
Transportation and  Public Facilities to hold  the surface estate                                                               
of certain state land; relating  to the transfer of certain state                                                               
land and  materials from the  Department of Natural  Resources to                                                               
the Department  of Transportation  and Public Facilities  for the                                                               
construction or  maintenance of the  state highway  system, state                                                               
airports, and state public buildings  and facilities; relating to                                                               
the  lease  or  sale  of certain  marine  or  harbor  facilities;                                                               
relating  to  the   lease  or  disposal  by   the  Department  of                                                               
Transportation and  Public Facilities of  rights-of-way, property                                                               
interests, or improvements that  are no longer required; relating                                                               
to the  grant of certain  easements over submerged state  land to                                                               
the  federal  government; relating  to  the  transfer of  certain                                                               
maintenance  stations   on  the  James  Dalton   Highway  to  the                                                               
Department of  Transportation and Public Facilities;  relating to                                                               
the conveyance of land for  right-of-way purposes from the Alaska                                                               
Railroad  Corporation to  the  Department  of Transportation  and                                                               
Public Facilities; and providing for an effective date."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:06:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON  moved  to adopt  a  proposed  committee                                                               
substitute  (CS)  for  HB   371,  labeled  28-LS1545\N,  Bullock,                                                               
3/10/14  as the  working  document.   There  being no  objection,                                                               
Version N was before the committee.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:07:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REBECCA ROONEY, Staff, Representative  Peggy Wilson, Alaska State                                                               
Legislature,  on behalf  of the  House Transportation  Committee,                                                               
Representative  P. Wilson,  Chair, explained  the changes  in the                                                               
proposed CS,  Version N.  She  reported that a companion  bill is                                                               
in  the other  body and  the changes  in Version  N were  made to                                                               
conform  to the  other  bill.   She related  that  the title  was                                                               
shortened and  she characterized  the changes as  being technical                                                               
or cosmetic changes.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. ROONEY  described HB  371 as  a collaborative  effort between                                                               
the  Department of  Transportation &  Public Facilities  (DOT&PF)                                                               
and the Department  of Natural Resources (DNR).   The purpose was                                                               
to reduce  ambiguity and  streamline the  rights-of-way processes                                                               
between the  two departments.   This bill  represents a  "no cost                                                               
solution" that  will save time  and resources  for transportation                                                               
projects.  Additionally, it  will reduce contracting requirements                                                               
between  DOT&PF  and  DNR  when   accessing  road  materials  for                                                               
transportation projects.   She noted a reciprocal  removal of the                                                               
55-year  limit  on  U.S.  Forest  Service  (USFS)  transportation                                                               
easements and  DNR's log transfer  priority easements.   Finally,                                                               
under the  bill, DNR would transfer  two DNR sites to  DOT&PF for                                                               
use as  maintenance stations and airstrips  to accommodate recent                                                               
resource  development.   She  identified  the  sites as  Franklin                                                               
Bluffs and Happy Valley on the Dalton Highway.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P.  WILSON  reiterated  that this  bill  is  an  agreement                                                               
between  the two  aforementioned  departments  to streamline  the                                                               
process when a right-of-way exchange is necessary.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:10:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOHN BENNETT, Right-of-Way Chief,  Northern Region, Department of                                                               
Transportation &  Public Facilities (DOT&PF), stated  that HB 371                                                               
will change  the relationship between  the DOT&PF & the  DNR with                                                               
respect  to the  acquisition, management,  and disposal  of lands                                                               
necessary  for airports,  highways,  and public  facilities.   He                                                               
pointed out  that 30 percent  of the land  in Alaska is  owned by                                                               
the state  and managed  by DNR.   Thus, the  DOT&PF's interaction                                                               
with  DNR  for  lands  and  materials is  extensive.    The  bill                                                               
sections repeat language for each  of the DOT&PF's three areas of                                                               
authority.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:11:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT said  the bill clarifies that DOT&PF  has the primary                                                               
authority to manage the surface estates for the highway rights-                                                                 
of-way, airport  properties and public facilities.   That primary                                                               
authority relates  to existing rights-of-way and  existing lands.                                                               
First, this  bill would help  clarify the  management authorities                                                               
and roles  of each  department.  Second,  the bill  would provide                                                               
uniform language across  all of the authorities  for the disposal                                                               
of  land interests  that  the  DOT&PF has  deemed  excess to  its                                                               
needs.   This combination  would work to  solve some  issues that                                                               
adjoining landowners  have when  encroaching into  the rights-of-                                                               
way.   Under  the  bill,  the DOT&PF  would  have the  unilateral                                                               
authority  to  dispose  of  lands, which  can  help  solve  these                                                               
landowner issues.   Third, this bill  would set up a  new process                                                               
for transferring  land and  land interests  from the  DNR managed                                                               
public  domain  into the  DOT&PF.    Essentially, this  bill  was                                                               
modeled  after a  federal process  the department  uses with  the                                                               
Federal Highways  Administration (FHWA)  to assist the  DOT&PF in                                                               
appropriating land from  the Bureau of Land  Management (BLM) and                                                               
the  U.S.  Forest Service.    For  example, when  the  department                                                               
determines  it   needs  right-of-way  properties,   the  affected                                                               
parties can go to the agency  and tell them they have four months                                                               
to comment or the FHWA will  appropriate it directly.  He pointed                                                               
out the  FHWA will actually  issue the deed  to the state.   This                                                               
bill  would set  up a  similar process  that will  streamline the                                                               
process of acquiring DNR managed  lands.  Furthermore, the DOT&PF                                                               
would like to  streamline and create a new  process for acquiring                                                               
sand and  gravel materials for  its projects.  Under  the current                                                               
process  one state  [department] contracts  with [another]  state                                                               
[department].  The  DOT&PF enters into a  material sales contract                                                               
with Department of Natural Resources  (DNR) that includes payment                                                               
for materials.   Typically  these contracts  have a  limited term                                                               
and a limited quantity of  material.  However, the authorizations                                                               
often   lapse  and   the  department   must  request   additional                                                               
authorization to expand  the quantity or the term.   This process                                                               
has   created  an   administrative  burden   for  both   agencies                                                               
especially since  the state  is requesting  state-owned materials                                                               
to construct  state-owned infrastructure.  The  process under the                                                               
bill would result in a more efficient process.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:14:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT identified  additional provisions  that relieve  the                                                               
Alaska Railroad  Corporation (ARRC) from the  necessity to obtain                                                               
legislative approval when the DOT&PF  requires fee title from the                                                               
ARRC.  Currently, the DOT&PF  can negotiate and appraise property                                                               
just  as it  would  with any  private owner,  but  the ARRC  must                                                               
subsequently  seek legislative  approval.   This requirement  for                                                               
additional legislative approval  can add one to two  years to the                                                               
project delivery  process, which the department  believes results                                                               
in unintended  consequences.  Additionally,  one provision  of HB
371 would  transfer the Happy  Valley and Franklin  Bluffs Trans-                                                               
Alaska Pipeline System  (TAPS) campsites from the  DNR to DOT&PF.                                                               
Mr.  Bennett  pointed  out  that the  DOT&PF  applied  for  these                                                               
properties twenty  years ago.   Although  these camps  provide an                                                               
efficient delivery  of maintenance services,  additional resource                                                               
development along  the corridor and  the potential for  a natural                                                               
gas line  makes it  important for DOT&PF  to acquire  these sites                                                               
now.    However,  these  camp transfers  have  been  hampered  by                                                               
competing  municipal entitlement  selections by  the North  Slope                                                               
Borough (NSB).   He deferred  to the  Department of Law  (DOL) to                                                               
discuss the issues related to these reciprocal easements.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:15:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SEAN LYNCH,  Assistant Attorney General,  Transportation Section,                                                               
Department  of  Law  (DOL),  stated  that  the  Congress  granted                                                               
easements across the Tongass National  Forest connecting towns in                                                               
Southeast  Alaska in  exchange for  the state  granting the  U.S.                                                               
Forest Service  easements across the state's  submerged lands for                                                               
log transfer facilities, access  to USFS cabins, and recreational                                                               
facilities.   The easements were  prepared and  exchanged between                                                               
the  state  and  the  federal   government  but  because  of  the                                                               
Department  of Natural  Resources (DNR)'s  regulations the  state                                                               
easements to the federal government are  limited to 55 years.  In                                                               
the reciprocal  exchange, the USFS  has limited the  states' road                                                               
and utility  easements to the same  55 years.  Section  16 [of HB
371]  would  allow the  DNR's  commissioner  in a  best  interest                                                               
finding to remove the 55-year  limitation.  Further, the USFS has                                                               
assured  the state  that it  will give  an equal  term of  years,                                                               
which would allow  the extension of the  state's easements across                                                               
USFS lands.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:17:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON recalled that  Section 16 was disputed by                                                               
municipal  governments.   He  asked  whether  the department  has                                                               
resolved the municipal disputes.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT answered yes; he  is correct that competing interests                                                               
exist.  The  department applied for this authority  20 years ago,                                                               
based  on the  assertion that  the existing  state land  was more                                                               
appropriately  used  for  public   purposes  rather  than  to  be                                                               
allocated under the municipal entitlement  program.  He estimated                                                               
between one-third  and one-half of  the land selected  will still                                                               
be available after  the department has "carved  out" lands needed                                                               
to enclose  airstrips, material sites, and  the existing building                                                               
plants.   He  related this  is  based on  a review  of a  graphic                                                               
representation  of the  lands previously  selected  by the  North                                                               
Slope Borough (NSB).   One reason this matter  has not progressed                                                               
is  due to  the competing  interests.   He maintained  the DOT&PF                                                               
believes  the  public's interest  and  use  of this  property  is                                                               
greater and more significant than municipal interests.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:19:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON said  he understood  that this  could be                                                               
construed  as  another  method  of  obtaining  municipal  revenue                                                               
sharing  since the  Dalton Highway  serves a  statewide interest,                                                               
although  one  municipality  obtains  an extra  advantage.    For                                                               
example, it would  be similar to the City of  North Pole claiming                                                               
some  facilities along  the  Richardson Highway  to  tax or  gain                                                               
revenue from  the activities.  He  asked whether this is  part of                                                               
the consideration and to identify any disadvantages.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:20:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT  agreed the North  Slope Borough's intent  is revenue                                                               
generation.   These sites would  be very sought after  since they                                                               
were selected as TAPS sites for  a good reason.  He suggested the                                                               
NSB would  seek to select  and receive  title to these  sites and                                                               
lease them  back to the  state on  an as-needed basis.   However,                                                               
the DOT&PF  seeks to  avoid these  situations since  it maintains                                                               
that retaining the properties is in the public's best interest.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:21:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON  asked whether the provisions  in Section                                                               
16 will resolve the issue.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT  answered  this  language  will  declare  that  this                                                               
property has  been transferred to  DOT&PF and is  not immediately                                                               
available  for municipal  entitlements.   However, he  envisioned                                                               
that over time  the use of the sites will  no longer be necessary                                                               
and the sites might be  available for NSB selection or conveyance                                                               
at a later date.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:22:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS  commented that this bill  was read                                                               
across the floor  yesterday so he has not yet  had an opportunity                                                               
to review  this somewhat  complex bill.   He hoped  the committee                                                               
will have more opportunity to ask questions beyond today.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P.  WILSON  acknowledged  that  HB 371  is  a  simple  yet                                                               
complicated bill that  will allow land transfers  between the two                                                               
departments.     In   further   response  to   a  question,   she                                                               
acknowledged the committee member's request for additional time.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:23:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON recalled  some  railroad  acts allow  the                                                               
ability  to transfer  rights-of-way  lands back  to the  adjacent                                                               
landowners.   He  remarked he  is never  opposed to  transferring                                                               
lands to  private landowners.   He asked whether the  land should                                                               
be transferred to private landowners instead of to the state.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT  answered that [Section  16] is narrowly  tailored to                                                               
only relate to  the relationship between the ARRC  and the DOT&PF                                                               
to allow the  department to obtain fee title  on certain railroad                                                               
lands.   He  understood  the rights-of-way  being re-conveyed  to                                                               
adjoining landowners.   However, he  did not believe this  is the                                                               
situation being  addressed today.  This  provision relates solely                                                               
to properties the railroad owns or intends to own.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:24:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  remarked that at some  point the railroad                                                               
must  not  want  the  land  or they  wouldn't  be  interested  in                                                               
transferring it.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT  answered that it is  not a question with  respect to                                                               
the  railroad wanting  to dispose  of  land but  rather that  the                                                               
DOT&PF  requires  the  ARRC's  land for  an  airport  or  highway                                                               
project.  He  clarified that the department  identifies the need,                                                               
appraises, and  negotiates the land  transfer, but the  ARRC does                                                               
not volunteer to sell it to the DOT&PF until that point.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  suggested  the  ARRC  is  not  in  great                                                               
financial shape right now so it  may be in the ARRC's interest to                                                               
lease  the  land instead  of  transferring  it  by a  fee  simple                                                               
process.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT acknowledged  the  point, but  the  DOT&PF tends  to                                                               
avoid  leases since  the  term of  the lease  will  end, yet  the                                                               
public funds for a new project may  not be in place yet.  This is                                                               
the reason  the DOT&PF seeks  to purchase  permanent right-of-way                                                               
or  land interests,  whether  it is  through  easements or  fees.                                                               
This provides  the basis for  future knowledge of when  funds are                                                               
needed.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:26:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  suggested that either the  ARRC will seek                                                               
funds or  else the  DOT&PF will  seek more  funds to  lease lands                                                               
from the ARRC.   He was unsure  whether it would be  best for the                                                               
legislature to  [appropriate funds  to] the  ARRC or  the DOT&PF.                                                               
He  questioned  whether  the DOT&PF  has  more  opportunities  to                                                               
obtain federal funds.   He said he has questions  on the best way                                                               
to ensure the future of the ARRC and the DOT&PF.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:27:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON  asked for further clarification  that this isn't                                                               
a  special  case since  this  is  the  process DOT&PF  uses  with                                                               
respect to right-of-way acquisitions.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.   BENNETT  answered   that   the  best   public  policy   for                                                               
acquisition, maintenance,  and operations  of public  projects is                                                               
to avoid  recurring costs, which  having a permanent  interest in                                                               
the  rights-of-way accomplishes.   He  related his  understanding                                                               
that the ARRC supports this language.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:28:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P.  WILSON related  her understanding  that under  the bill                                                               
the DOT&PF would purchase land from the ARRC.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT agreed.   He  summarized that  this provision  would                                                               
advance project  delivery by  not requiring  legislative approval                                                               
of the land transfer [between the ARRC and the DOT&PF].                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:28:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ISAACSON  understood this would  expedite projects                                                               
in order to develop the state,  but the bill does not extend rail                                                               
lines or  reconvey properties.   For example, under the  bill, if                                                               
the  state decided  to build  the railroad  to Delta  Junction or                                                               
some other  location the legislature  would authorize  the DOT&PF                                                               
to negotiate the land needed  for right-of-way acquisition.  This                                                               
could help speed up projects  if the legislature has approved the                                                               
right-of-way acquisition in advance.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT related  an  example  in which  the  DOT&PF need  to                                                               
acquire substantial  property on  the Illinois Street  project in                                                               
Fairbanks.     Since   the  rights-of-way   acquisition  required                                                               
legislative  approval it  took  one or  two  additional years  to                                                               
secure legislative permission.   Although the DOT&PF can appraise                                                               
property,  and  negotiate  prices, the  railroad  cannot  execute                                                               
deeds for fee simple title without legislative approval.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:30:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON  understood  that the  bill  would  help                                                               
contain development  costs and this  bill also represents  one of                                                               
the best ways to save the railroad money.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT  acknowledged that  one of the  benefits would  be to                                                               
advance projects.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:30:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ISAACSON  asked  whether the  bill  might  create                                                               
unintended consequences and for any downsides.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT  answered that  he considered  this provision  of the                                                               
bill to be the  most benign.  He offered his  belief that this is                                                               
essentially an  unintended consequence  of the  enabling statutes                                                               
for the railroad.  He  felt certain the legislature couldn't have                                                               
intended  to delay  projects between  one state-owned  entity and                                                               
the DOT&PF.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P. WILSON  remarked  that the  projects  in question  have                                                               
already  received legislative  approval, but  the way  the ARRC's                                                               
statutes  were written  requires  the railroad  [or DOT&PF]  must                                                               
seek additional legislative approval.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT agreed,  noting typically  these projects  are major                                                               
capital improvement projects.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:32:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTIS  remarked  that this  bill  affects  state                                                               
property  and does  not  relate to  the  state acquiring  private                                                               
property.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT  agreed.   He said  the portions  that relate  to the                                                               
transfer of  properties from  DNR's public  domain to  the DOT&PF                                                               
would  be  considered  transfer of  "state  property"  to  "state                                                               
property."    The  railroad  was  established  as  a  state-owned                                                               
corporation so it is treated a little differently.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTIS  asked for further clarification  that this                                                               
is not affecting individual property rights.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BENNETT  agreed  it  does  not  affect  individual  property                                                               
rights.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:33:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON recalled  that at  the time  the railroad                                                               
was  transferred,   the  legislature  wanted  control   over  the                                                               
transfer of any  railroad land.  He surmised this  body still has                                                               
an unwillingness to  give up control.  He  remarked that "nothing                                                               
is simple" with respect to the railroad.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P.   WILSON  reminded  members  that   this  bill  relates                                                               
specifically to the DOT&PF and not with any private entity.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. BENNETT agreed.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:35:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ED FOGELS,  Deputy Commissioner, Department of  Natural Resources                                                               
(DNR), stated that DNR has worked  with DOT&PF for many months on                                                               
the bill  and DNR does  not have any issues  with the bill.   The                                                               
fundamental concept  embodied in HB  371 is similar to  the DNR's                                                               
efforts  to improve  its permitting  processes  and to  eliminate                                                               
duplicative bureaucracy and unnecessary  processes.  He asked why                                                               
the state  should have to  contract with itself for  materials if                                                               
the DOT&PF  needs to  use materials  within the  right-of-way for                                                               
its road  projects.  Under the  bill, the DNR would  still manage                                                               
the  subsurface  rights and  lands  within  the right-of-way  for                                                               
other uses  while prioritizing by  keeping DOT&PF's needs  at the                                                               
top.   He suggested  that HB  371 is  one mechanism  to eliminate                                                               
repetitive work for both agencies.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:36:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON asked whether HB 371 will save the state money.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS answered yes.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:36:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTIS  remarked  that  time  is  money  and  she                                                               
understood this bill will save time.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS answered yes; that HB 371 will save staff time.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:36:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON  asked for an estimate of the  average staff time                                                               
that will be saved.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FOGELS  answered  that  the time  savings  is  difficult  to                                                               
quantify.   However, the DNR  spends significant energy  and time                                                               
within the  department to adjudicate  material sales  relating to                                                               
roads  or highway  projects.   He  estimated  that several  staff                                                               
spends most of their time on  these issues which could be used to                                                               
reduce the DNR's backlog somewhere else.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:37:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P.  WILSON   asked  whether  this  staff   could  work  on                                                               
permitting in some other area.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS agreed.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:37:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHNSON  asked   whether  the   materials  would                                                               
primarily be gravel.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS  answered that  the materials  would be  gravel, rock,                                                               
and sand.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:38:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked  whether private companies primarily                                                               
hold these leases.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS  answered that  DNR has  material sales  contracts for                                                               
materials  sites  with  multiple contracts  between  the  private                                                               
sector and DOT&PF on some sites.   He agreed the department would                                                               
need to  sort this out  but new sites  would be under  the DOT&PF                                                               
and  the  DNR would  work  with  the  DOT&PF on  any  preexisting                                                               
contracts.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:39:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON emphasized  that he'd  like to  avoid the                                                               
situation with a  private company bidding on a state  job but the                                                               
state has  a "sweetheart deal"  for the materials.   He suggested                                                               
it has  been proven  that the private  sector projects  cost less                                                               
than the state  to accomplish.  He summarized that  he would like                                                               
to avoid the state taking away  private jobs due to a "sweetheart                                                               
deal" on material costs.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS  said DNR views  it that third party  contractors will                                                               
work on the projects regardless.   This bill would only eliminate                                                               
the DNR  component from the  chain.  The DOT&PF  would administer                                                               
third-party  contracts  to  perform  road  construction  and  use                                                               
materials.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:40:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  maintained his  goal to ensure  that this                                                               
bill doesn't  establish a DOT&PF bureaucracy  that can overcharge                                                               
a  private contractor  for materials  so  the contractor  doesn't                                                               
have any chance to win the bid.   He would further like to ensure                                                               
that  everyone  is on  equal  footing.   Currently,  the  private                                                               
sector performs quite adequately so  he doesn't want to sacrifice                                                               
private industry jobs, he said.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS  offered to review  the materials process  with DOT&PF                                                               
and report back to the committee.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
1:42:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KREISS-TOMKINS referred to  Sections 2, 4, and 10,                                                               
specifically in Section 4, lines  15-17 of the bill, which allows                                                               
the department the ability to dispose  of land.  He asked whether                                                               
that means the DOT&PF will receive revenue for the land sale.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS answered  that Section 4 refers  to DOT&PF's statutes.                                                               
He related  that DNR has  mechanisms for land sales,  including a                                                               
land  disposal  income fund.    He  was  unsure of  the  DOT&PF's                                                               
mechanisms, but speculated  that the funds may go to  back to the                                                               
general fund.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:43:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KREISS-TOMKINS  said  he   is  interested  in  an                                                               
established protocol to  ensure that DOT&PF will not  need to set                                                               
up a process that DNR already does well.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS  answered that  DNR's authority is  for land  sales to                                                               
the public.   This provision  relates to little remnants  of land                                                               
leftover from  projects such  as highway  realignment, such  as a                                                               
sliver  of right-of-way  land  is not  used.   Currently,  DOT&PF                                                               
can't dispose  of the aforementioned  sliver of land so  the land                                                               
reverts back  to DNR who  must then dispose  of it.   The current                                                               
process adds unnecessary  time and bureaucracy.   It's clear that                                                               
this bill  would eliminate the  bureaucracy and allow  the DOT&PF                                                               
to directly handle the remnants, he said.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:45:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FEIGE  referred to Section  4 of HB 371  and asked                                                               
whether  any implied  priority exists.   He  read paragraph  (1),                                                               
which read, in  part, "transfer the land,  property interests, or                                                               
improvements  to   the  Department   of  Natural   Resources,  if                                                               
requested by the commissioner of  natural resources; or ...."  He                                                               
asked  whether this  language  implies that  DNR  would have  the                                                               
first right  of refusal or if  DOT&PF can dispose of  the land as                                                               
it sees fit without any priority.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FOGELS   answered  that   the  intent   is  for   the  DNR's                                                               
commissioner to  agree to take the  land back before the  land is                                                               
transferred.  The DNR wants to  be part of the decision to ensure                                                               
the department agrees to the land transfer.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:46:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON  pointed out this language is also  in Section 2,                                                               
4, and 10.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS agreed.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:46:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FEIGE suggested  that  an instance  may arise  in                                                               
which the DNR  might want the land, but the  DOT&PF may decide to                                                               
sell it  to someone else.   He asked whether this  section should                                                               
be structured with a clear priority  to allow DNR the first right                                                               
of refusal on land transfers.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:46:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON read subsection (b)  [, which read, in part, "...                                                               
shall  notify  the  commissioner  of natural  resources"  on  any                                                               
transfer  of land  or  disposal  of land  so  she envisioned  the                                                               
commissioner would know in advance.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS  agreed, but  the provision also  requires the  DNR to                                                               
"request" the land.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  FEIGE questioned  whether  the DNR  automatically                                                               
would receive any requested land or  if it is still up to DOT&PF.                                                               
He asked  whether the first  right of refusal language  should be                                                               
stronger.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS deferred to the bill  drafter or the Department of Law                                                               
to respond.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:47:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FEIGE asked  whether the DNR would  want the first                                                               
right of refusal.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS answered  that he did not think it  would be an issue.                                                               
Again, the  lands in question  are lands used  for transportation                                                               
purposes  and typically  the remaining  land  would entail  small                                                               
remnants.  He envisioned that  the department would offer to sell                                                               
the land to an adjacent landowner.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:48:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P.  WILSON  related  an   instance  in  which  the  DOT&PF                                                               
straightened a road  and removed a curve, which left  a sliver of                                                               
land it  didn't need for  the road  project.  She  didn't imagine                                                               
anyone would want the piece, but  she recalled the land was given                                                               
to  the borough.    She read  subsection (b),  in  part, "If  the                                                               
department   determines  that   land,   property  interests,   or                                                               
improvements  are  no  longer  necessary,  the  department  shall                                                               
notify   the   commissioner   of   natural   resources   of   the                                                               
determination and  may ...."   At that  point the  department may                                                               
transfer or dispose of the land  yet the DOT&PF must still notify                                                               
the DNR, she said.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:50:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  acknowledged the  bill's intention  is to                                                               
give the  DNR first  right of  refusal, but  he pointed  out some                                                               
instances in  which condemnation has  occurred.  Under  the bill,                                                               
land that had  been condemned would revert to  the DOT&PF instead                                                               
of to the original property owner.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. FOGELS thought  that it would be best to  have the Department                                                               
of Law present.   Still, as he reads subsection  (b), it requires                                                               
the DOT&PF  to notify  the commissioner  of natural  resources of                                                               
the determination  and the  department may  transfer the  land to                                                               
DNR  or  dispose  of  the  land  by  sale,  lease,  vacation,  or                                                               
exchange.  Therefore, the DOT&PF has the choice, he said.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHNSON  suggested   that   if  the   department                                                               
condemned the land, the DOT&PF should  not have any choice if the                                                               
land  is  not  used.    Instead,  he  maintained  that  in  those                                                               
instances the land should be offered to the private party.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:51:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   FEIGE  interpreted   Section  1   to  give   the                                                               
department the choice.  The  language requires the DNR to request                                                               
the land if the department wants it, but it is up to the DOT&PF.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHNSON   disagreed.       Regardless   of   the                                                               
interpretation,   if  land   is  condemned   and  not   used  the                                                               
commissioner should  not have a  choice to decide.   Instead, the                                                               
private owner  should have the  choice to  buy the land  back, he                                                               
said.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:52:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR P. WILSON  suggested there are circumstances  in which land                                                               
is condemned  since the  private party  did not  want to  pay the                                                               
taxes.   Thus,  instances  occur  in which  the  party no  longer                                                               
wishes to continue to make payments [and doesn't want the land.]                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:53:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  agreed.     However,  an  agreed  buyout                                                               
represents  different situation  than  a condemnation  procedure.                                                               
He maintained that the private  party should have the first right                                                               
of refusal and not a commissioner.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  P.  WILSON  agreed.    She offered  her  belief  that  the                                                               
department  probably  already  has  rules  it  follows  but  it's                                                               
important to find out.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:54:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FEIGE referred again  to [Section 4] paragraph (1)                                                               
[on  page  3,  lines  12-14],  which  indicates  the  DOT&PF  may                                                               
transfer the  land, but the  department cannot arbitrarily  do so                                                               
since the DNR  must first request the land.   Paragraph (2) would                                                               
allow for the  disposal of the land.  He  maintained his question                                                               
on whether  DNR should  have an automatic  preference and  if the                                                               
language implies a preference.   For example, if DNR requests the                                                               
land,  should the  land  automatically be  transferred  or is  it                                                               
still up to the DOT&PF commissioner to decide.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
[HB 371 was held over.]                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB0371A.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
HB 371 Sponsor Stmt .pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
HB371-DNR-MLW-3-10-14.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
HB371-DOT-SDES-3-11-14.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
HB 371 Elements of the Bill.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
HB 371 Glenn MP 118 N ROW Plans.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
HB 371 Old Glenn Hwy.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371
SSHB 194 ver N.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB 194-Sponsor Statement.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB 194 Sectional Summary.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB194SS-DOT-NDAES-3-11-14.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB194SS-DNR-MLW-3-8-14.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB 194-Letters of Support.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB 194 Supporting Documents-Applicable Statutes.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB 194 Applicable Statutes.docx HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
HB 194 Ahnta Presentation 3-11-14.pptx HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 194
CSHB 371 ver N draft.pdf HTRA 3/11/2014 1:00:00 PM
HB 371